Singapore Politics

1) Year 1 – Will you say yes to LKY to be a Minister? How many do you think will say “yes” from the 10? (eg: 9/10)

If someone else ask, probably yes, but if LKY ask, hell no!

Saying yes to LKY will mean I have to betray my conscience and become a yes-man and a crony. He does not want a minister, he wants an eunuch to serve his wimps. Singapore is his forbidden city and we are all nothing more than servants to him. Damn, as servants, we even have to pay to house ourselves in pigeon coups and pay to have our own meals.

Just like an emperor, anyone who displeases him will be terrorized, exiled, thrown into jail without trial (ISD), and the list goes on...

what's wrong with a bit of turnover? brings fresh ideas and weeds out those who want money more than public service

in any case T, you simply have not added anything new to the government's own explanation and I dont think your long articles changed anyone's mind; again I advise: if that's all you have to offer, give it up and devote yourself to making money

asiayouthmedia.com

My problem lies with option 3. Unless the company has to get government contracts like Halliburton or many American private equity companies, there would be no MNC that request for the service of this minister.

The fallacy of the whole essay lies in option no 3. Name an instance when after 5 years, you are requested to join the private sector. It's usually otherwise.

The current trend in Singapore is: work for some time in private sector, enter politic, then get into private sector again.

The questions most likely to raise are what are the performance metrics for measurement to show minister are doing good ?

When LKY says that Singapore ministers perform well, is it in terms of economic performance ? Then how do you measure social issue in pursuing economic performance ?

The answer is none because both are at odd at each other.

Social issues are sidestepped because most measurement focus on tangible benefits rather than intangibles.

The gov will be more credible to tell us what is the key performance indicator for those ministers rather than merely go for result. Result we have are so far short-term, and what are problem of pursuing short term result ?

Why doesn't the government just do THIS: make a big issue out of every instance a minister is offered a lucrative private sector transition. Do it like in football. Anytime a club talks to Cristiano Ronaldo's agent, it becomes the headlines and Man Utd then publicises Ronaldo's rejection of a transfer, showing off to the world the player's commitment to the club.

So if our dear ministers are in grave danger of being poached by the private sector every other month, why doesn't the government publicise that rather than claiming it's true every time they increase the ministers' salaries. These would be great opportunities to justify to the public the salaries they receive, especially if these salaries are public money. I'd rest my case.

Your whole argument is totally warped. You are totally distorting the meaning of "Serving the people and for the people". You are protraying public service as a PROFESSION instead and I dont think you are fit to call yourself as a philosopher.

If a minister by Yr 5 is feeling the straint, by all means leave! That goes to show that this minister is not a calibre suitable for public service. We don't need ministers like that.

It is only uniquely here that we have both power and monetary rewards going hand in hand for politicians

8.13pm: but you are so cruel asking them to leave after 5 years; some of them cant afford to: they may not be able to find a decent job, and a few would face discrimination because of age, sex, overqualification, etc

It seems as if not many are interested in answering your question, so I will the first to answer everyone of them.

1) Year 1 – Will you say yes to LKY to be a Minister? How many do you think will say “yes” from the 10? (eg: 9/10)
No, I will not. I do not disagree that a minister is a difficult job and I know I am definitely not capable of fulfilling all the expected responsibilities to a satisfactory level. (Although I must add that a minister in other truly democratic countries would be far more taxing and gruelling because the opposition camp and mass media would be trying to tear one down.)

Of course, if there is an understudy position to take where I can learn the ropes, I might change my mind. A minister is indeed very nice on a portfolio and you can get to enter the history books. Heh.

That said, in the long run, 50K per annum works out to slightly over 4K a month, which is rather miserly to me. Assuming that this question is posed to all Tom, Dick and Harry, probably less than 5/10 people might want to take the job. For pragmatic reasons, probably only the truly idealistic and the less well-to-do would be interested in it.


2) Year 5 – After all the realization of work and responsibility as a Minister, will you continue? How many do you think will stay on as Minister from the 10? (eg: 9/10)
Unless I've found someone else capable of succeeding my roles and responsibilites, I will continue. I can be a bit over zealous in protecting my name especially in history books. :)

Of course, if we assume that most people think that the job of a minister is a desk-bound job, many if not all, will be tempted at the very least, to give up the job. But nope, I don't think I can even estimate the number of people who will stay on.

3) Year 6 – Will you accept the offer from NOL? How do you think will stay on for a second term from the 10? (eg: 9/10)
A definite yes for me, because 4K a month is just barely enough for a family of four to leave comfortably.

Assuming that the truly idealistic and the less well-to-do people took up the job, only the truly idealistic people would remain. My guess is about 2/10.


4) Year 10 – As the PM, are you absolutely confident that your Ministers are incorruptible?
Nah. I've learnt to always assume the worst, so I probably won't be confident.


5) Year 10 – If you are the Minister, how many of your peers from the 10, do you think will quit in the midst of moderate public confidence?
Quit halfway through the term? Probably not many, but the number will rise at the end of each term since the pay is pretty pathetic.


My Own Critique:
As with some of the other bloggers who have commented earlier, your questions are a little skewed to elicit a certain desired answer which will strengthen your argument.

1. I abhor the use of "50K per annum" as an example. It's what most people can earn after graduating with a degree. And it doesn't really substantiate the ministerial pay hike as the pre-hike ministerial pay was already too high for the people on the street to even grasp.

2. As already pointed out, I am highly doubtful that MNCs are constantly poaching our ministers, offering them salaries of 20 times (1million divide by 50k) their current pay.

3. Personally, high pay might deter corruption to a certain extent especially if the minister is not even able to balance his own bills. But we can always look to white collar crimes as an example that high pay cannot prevent corruption totally.

However, pressure in terms of implicit internal party pressure, public confidence and transparency might be more effective. I highlight transparency as I personally do not think we have achieved to a desired level yet.

In short, I believe that the ministerial pay hike:
(a) will not deter anyone who already has intentions to siphon money out of the system.
(b) make the public even more critical and cynical of the government
(c) but might possibly retain some ministers who are pragmatically driven by monetary rewards.

Yes,I agree with most of Kelvin Lim's comments. something to add. the right way to go in curbing corruption is in checks and balances. that means real scrutiny from an independent president, independent media, a police force that DOES NOT report to the prime minister, a healthy opposition that does not get intimidated, an independent judiciary and a chief justice that does not owe his tenure to the prime minister.

It is only because the PAP insists on such an opaque system that it becomes imperative to pay such high salaries to entice ministers to stay uncorrupt. pay them well so they won't rob us? that argument is shameless. if they really care so much about singapore, they should subject themselves to greater scrutiny instead

To some of you who are so negative about PAP, I say this again as I said to some people who know me.
Go out there and do something really big that will make LKY sit up, take note and notice that the govt will be forced to listen.

You see, the problem with most of us Singaporeans is that we have a lot of grouses about this and that. But we don't have the guts and the balls to put words into real hard action. If all 3.8 millions of Singaporeans believe that the govt is wrong and stand firm to your beliefs, the govt can do very little. The govt can only catch, jail and detain CSJ or JBJ. But can the govt detain thousands of Singaporeans without creating a big furore and scaring the investors capital etc away ? We can bring PAP govt down to its knees. You see, money buys power. that's the reality even in the land of the free USA. Most of the US Presidents are from rich well to do families with wide connections. need money for running big election campaign and backing from influential lobby action groups. No system is perfect. there is no right or wrong answers in this increasingly complex world. Particularly in politics, there is no black or white, only grey areas.

Are Singaporeans willing to stand up to PAP and fight for the changes we want ? Like the China Tiananmen incident. Or at least be prepared to like Martin Luther King who rallied hundreds of thousands of people to call for equal civil rights for blacks. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." by Thomas Jefferson. If you really want it, go all the way to get it. Come on, Be all you can be ! Show PAP what you got ! Let the whole world know that finally there are Singaporeans who dare to stand up and fight for what they want instead of being led by the nose by the govt- grumbling yes but still follow docilely.

USA is a mature democracy because the people dare to stand up for their beliefs. The price of freedom
is responsibility. You are what you are. People are willing to pay the price for their beliefs and go all the way for it. But there is still imperfections like discrimination etc. Nobody is perfect.

After Tiananmen incident, China slowly learned its lessons and opening up gradually at a slow pace. For Philippines may have people power democracy, there are actually more nepotism with political families holding political post from generation to generation, Japan as well to some extent. Thailand - don't have to say it and you know it. corrupt and hidden power struggles. In Asia, there has never been a truly mature and successful democracy. I am still doing my own research for this.

This is the challenge for all anti PAP people out there.
Gather altogether simultaneously and launch a big street protest against GST hike and ministerial pay raise, Ban Foreigners as well,Singaporeans first only in this competitive world.
See if you can gather enough people who really share the beliefs and willing to risk it all for the betterment of Singapore ? Go ahead , join Dr Chee and JBJ in his call.
Gotta have the guts, not empty talk ! No Action Talk Only is taking cheapskate shots at PAP. It is action that really counts in politics and history, like Gandhi who launched many peace strikes or
Sun Yat Sen who launched countless revolutionary struggles or Mao.

Frankly, I am still heartened to know that there is a growing number of Singaporeans who are learning to be more proactive about social political issues. It shows that finally after over 40 years of independence, Singaporeans are starting to be more assertive about their rights as stakeholders of this country. That we care enough about the nation and voicing our concerns in the Internet.

Much more still needs to be done. Personally, I am still not really anti PAP or Pro PAP as I am doing my own homework and research in order to find out for myself. I am undecided, neutral person about politics. Don't know and not sure which side should I turn to in future. Only Time will tell. Maybe, I may just give up on this country, quitting Singapore if I lose hope and become too disillusioned about our state of afairs. I never know till the time comes to the point where I have to make a choice and crunch about it.
For now the time being and in my own way, I gotta be pragmatic, objective and realistic in order not to bias too positively or negatively in my self-study about politics. Nevertheless, I must take my hat off and hand it to Thrasymachus who has remarkably shown a high level of maturity in being pragmatic, objective and realistic. That I must seek to catch up on my own.

If PAP ever gets to the point where I can no longer stand it anymore, I will be worse than Dr Chee, going all out to bring PAP down.
On the other hand, if PAP really wins me over, I will seek to be more than Dr Vivan.

Brunei is just the size of a moderate city. But it is owned by the sultan so there is not much to politicking for govtal control then backstabbing for sultan's favour. Singapore is a city smaller than KL in every way but it is runned by 80+ MPs plus how many ministers with SM, MM, PM and a PR costing $20million+ pa. Look at the reality and ask ourselves why we need to pay some many millions to so many people? Is it not enough to pay for a SM, MM and PM to run this red-dot?

scratcher

It is silly to suggest anti-LKY to go out there and do something big enough to make LKY sit up. There's nothing big in this country except the ministers' new pays. What needs to be done is to whine incessantly until the sound cuts deep into the subconscious. Like this, those affected would not sleep sound and eventually take actions to placate the million whinners.
To those who are not fond to whining but are afraid to take actions like CSJ and JBJ, I suggest little acts of economic denials to the PAP institutions. Reduce your buying of NTUC products and services. Don't use Comfort taxis. Don't buy Fairprice branded goods.
Exercise the powers of consumers since the power of citizen actions is illegal.

scratcher

Disgruntled Singaporean raised a important point. Why Most of us Singaporeans are apathetic about social political issues ? In the 1960s, Singaporeans dared to stand up against the British colonial masters after WW2 and advocated for change. Strikes and riots were common happenings.We fought in the streets.

Social political stability was non-existent, in fact we can be said to be worse than Taiwan whose politicians fight in parliament every now and then, caught in stalemate, nothing much gets done to make real progress for the economy and the people. Taiwan's economy is in shambles, fresh grad's pay low and hardly keeping with rising standard of living and inflation in some reports.

I observed that many issues in politics is something like the chicken and the egg problem. underlying causes and the after effects. The question still remains after 40 years of independence, Are Singaporeans willing to take a big step forward like we used to be in the past ? Do we dare to take on PAP by collective action such as boycott of PAP linked organizations and take matters into our own hands, taking note that the govt has a significant hold in the running of the economy through various means ?

I observed some Americans who came as exchange students. I even spoke to my American professor about the States, They said that America since independence, have the people who push for it, like to make things happen instead standing by the sidelines and doing nothing much about it. They have this tendency to self-organize themselves and help their fellow compatriots who share the common ideals for democracy, equality, freedom and human rights. Social political change is always done by real hard actions. It is a powerful force to be reckoned with.

Are we willing to walk the walk and not just talking the talk ? Speaking is easy and cheap. Just empty talk that the govt will dismiss it easily with a wave of the hand. Action speaks louder. With no concrete action, words is like empty blank bullets with no real firepower. So I have to agree with Disgruntled Singaporean to some extent. Are we willing to pay the price ? Shake off the reliance on the govt so that PAP will have less control over us. It is really up to us.

My curiosity will be satisfied when I go over to the States for studies. I shall try my best to find out how it really is.

I cant agree with either suggestion; if you are unhappy with PAP politically, then take action politically, not economically or anti-socially

if oppositions parties can (a) show they know how to organize themselves democratically (b) come up with new ideas early which PAP later had to adopt (e.g., more welfare spending, allow casinos, tolerate homosexuals) then they are meaningful opposition parties; so far, CSJ and JBJ have both run one-man shows and so fail on (a), and by concentrating on attacking PAP rather than offering better ideas, they also fail (b)

asiayouthmedia.com

Young Singaporean does not get the point - CSJ and JBJ are not oppositions (Just because LKY nicked them so). These people are helpless individuals like you and I. They calling for alternative or well-proven systems which are more democratic. LKY is going towards the method of QingShiHuang which has proven workable for the emperor but to the detriment of the unwashed mass, citizens.

scratcher

quite so; they are not meaningful opposition parties, just one man shows, though they claim to be more

asiayouthmedia.com

Disgruntled Singaporean said:
Go out there and do something really big that will make LKY sit up, take note and notice that the govt will be forced to listen.

I agree with you, but how much good will it do in the end and what willl be the outcome.

1) We can't speak in Singapore without a license, so we end up blogging in cyberspace.

2) And now there are so many blogs with views that run contrary to that of the PAP, the govt finally listens.

3) So what happen now that they listen? They decide to invoke the MDA to censored the web so that we can have no voice again.

So what's next? Should we have a 100,000 people protest at the Padang? And will LKY order out the army like he said he would during the last election if there happen to have a "freak" result?

Well, if LKY really does that, then I guess that we should all be extremely gladful to him as for those who he did not kill or imprison, get the chance to immigrate to USA as political refugees.

Maybe one day till the situation ever get so bad, We might just get so fed up and frustrated that we just spontaneously take to the streets outside parliament. Something like the Russian February Revolution of 1917.
Years of tension and stress building up about the system, becomes like a balloon get too big and out of hand - EXPLODE ! BURST ! Hmm I realy wonder about it, would that happen to Singapore ? Remember SAF is largely made up of citizens like us. The Russian soldiers supported the Russian commoners in protest as well. Many lives were lost.

US President Thomas Jefferson is right by writing this after Shays Rebellion, " A little rebellion now and then is a good thing. …God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. …And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Are Singaporeans willing to do whatever it takes and pay any price to bring PAP down ? The question still remains.

I don't claim to be clairvoyant but I do believe that PAP is astute enough to sense potentially "destructive" forces that will threaten their foundation of power.

If we look back our short history, there was a time when the Chinese-educated were in a much more oppressive position and discrimination was rampant. However, as much as I disliked PAP, it has proven to be able to shrewd enough to find a solution that left them very much unscathed.

Maybe the Internet will be the revolutionary medium that will catapult Singapore to a different political landscape. But hey... this present government is not as static as we would want it to be.

Hmm I observed the Americans in my student exchange program when they came over. They are very vocal about their beliefs and believe in taking action for their beliefs. Some people may think that Americans are arrogant SOBs, think that they know it all.

I observed and interacted with them closely in my course of studies. Found that it is due to the fact they are largely brought up to be independent by their parents since young. Once in University, they are largely left to their devices. Some even have to fend for themselves once they reached 18. Because of this, they are much more independent in thinking and behavior, care less about conventional traditions.

My American professor told me, " Americans are inclined towards self -organization of themselves into common interest action groups" I wonder why Singaporeans are not like that ? Maybe because we are somehow indoctrinated to conform to conventional tradition and respect the seniors as Asian culture. Our history showed that Singaporeans had lived under strong political masters all along from the British , the Japs and PAP.

In Asia, No country has ever reached maturity for democarcy yet ? Maybe, Can anyone tell me (this novice political observer) which nation has successfully built up a working democracy that brings economic progress, freedom and human rights for the common people with no corruption or any other vices ?

Qin Shi Huang's empire fell after his death. So I really wonder whether will Singapore fall after LKY is gone ? Can LHL and successors still hold the fort long after and maintain Singapore's continued success, wealth and prosperity ? In Chinese, we have 2 sayings which goes something like this, "Wealth rarely lasts beyond 3 generations" and "It is harder to keep your wealth than get rich".

I had watched CCTV's " The rise of Great Nations - Da Guo Jue Qi in chinese, Nations have their heydays of glory and their bad fall from grace. It is just life for a person, full of ups and downs. I wonder if Singapore can recover itself when we ever suffer a serious setback many times bigger than we went through in our past like SARS outbreaks , without PAP govt to lead the nation ?

Will we crumble like a deck of cards and go back to be a insignificant island - a 3rd world useless good for nothing slum, with the PAP gone ? This is another question I raise to all of us here who are so concerned about our nation. Specially to Disgruntled Singaporean who is so eager to see some hard action. Seems to be my other half - the alter ego. hahah !

Coming to Thrasymachus' question, I had thought long and hard about it. Am I willing to give up what I have now in my life - personal privacy and freedom to do what I want without people's close scrutiny, just to serve the people and society ? Hmm I began to ponder about it long and hard.

I see there is a heavy personal price to pay when entering politics. Politics in everywhere, is not for the faint-hearted. Only people with guts and willing to endure any obstacles in playing the game, have the right mantle to be a good player. It is serious business , no joke about it. Hundreds of Thousands of people's lives depends on it. Can I or anyone else live with it if I make a policy mistake ? It will haunt me like a shadowy ghost for the rest of my life.

Some young Americans I met in student exchange, are very political people, connected to a couple of senators and congressmen. They make no secret of wanting to move up the ranks of being up there one day. Like Bill Clinton who dream big of becoming President as his childhood ambition to be somebody. They are active in a lot of public activities such as fund-raising, public relations and speaking politics in their home university. One Guy is so into it that it becomes second nature. He even shot questions about Michael Fay case. We debated about it. He had to agree with me that Singapore has tough laws that made it safer than America. Even America is adopting some of Singapore's laws to combat terrorism and spying on own people. Lax guns laws caused several mass killings in American educational institutions. In response, some courts had adopted hardliner approach that is effective. There is a trade off of personal freedom for public safety and people fed up of high crime rate and dangerous streets acknowledge it as a reasonable price to pay.

I have to say that many Singaporeans are too sheltered and pampered by the convenience of being a small country easy to control and rule. In big countries, people have the space and thus more freedom but they have to be more responsible for their safety. My American friends and professor feel more safe than they do in the States, a feeling that I will never understand fully till I go over to USA on student exchange. They told me of the areas to beware of, find it a bit hard to imagine.

Therefore, I guess nothing is for free in this world. 1.2 to 1.6 million of minister salary is maybe a bit too much. but I realized that Singapore is a small nation which don't have the big physical size to risk some big mistake occurring. It may be a good thing ensuring Ministers stay on tip-top capabilities, doing their jobs seriously, diligently and conscientiously to the best they can. Our Ministers cannot afford to fail or they jolly well kick the bucket ! Probably more stressful than other nations' politicians. Have to deal with ever increasing demands of some unsatisfied Singaporeans who are never happy.

American Op-Ed columnist for the New York Times Thomas Friedman wrote an article Singapore and Katrina[2] reflecting on the American government's management performance after the hurricane, which he felt was slovenly and compared poorly to Singapore's governance. He cited among others Kishore Mahbubani, dean of the Lee Kwan Yew School of Public Policy who said "... You lose New Orleans, and you have 100 other cities just like it. But we're a city-state. We lose Singapore and there is nothing else. ... ".

Look, there is only one and only chance for Singapore. We cannot afford to lose and fail. Probably the reason of being a kiasu Singaporean, how we become competitive. And I have to say that PAP is perhaps the most far-sighted govt that they plan really long term, 10 -20 years, few other govts can do that.

Personally, I still find it hard to fathom accepting the full challenge of entering into politics as my life calling. Maybe I will or will not take up to the call to be a MP, let alone being a Minister. Only time will tell.

If I ever become a politician, I vow with my life that I will strive to be the best than I can , putting all my abilities and working with fellow Ministers to ensure Singapore will reach greater heights of glory on the world stage. Then again, it all depends on destiny and fate. Politics is war full of victories and defeats, ups and downs, just like life for a person - you really never know till the end. Nations too, rise and fall, as seen in history. You can see the recent CCTV series on Channel 8 about the rise of great nations. Our former colonial masters Britain mentioned among others, is a relatively small countries yet she dominated the 19th century. Is Singapore resilient enough to endure setbacks and fall from grace on the world stage ? The is the million dollar question.

your assumption, as would the gov too, is that appropriate monetary rewards is a necessity to validate a ministerial post or such. this maybe true depending from which perspective you are looking at. if this country is all about business(Inc as some would have called it), then, pay the chap who can bring in impressive numbers. however, if nation building is more than economics, the chap that only stay for money may also be the chap that will leave for money. there is no commitment to a cause except the cause be to money. such leadership can only beget the same and will not be able to shoulder real responsibilities that concern common lives,justice and the long term good of the nation!

Would I join officially to be a politician ? Politics is dark and dirty. Once I join, I am bound by some level of secrecy and may have to be emotionless about some official matters. Restrictions of movement for everywhere I go, is to be expected for security purposes. I say that many Singaporeans see only the glamourous side of politics and think it is a difficult but cushy well-paying job. Opps it should be a life calling, not just any ordinary profession or job.

Whether it is 1.2 to 1.6 million , 500k or 50-60k like T said in this posting to provoke us to think, the question is how many Singaporeans willing to step out, take the initiative and take the lead? As the chef would say this, " If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen ! " So if you cannot stand the heat of politics, don't even bother about it. It is something like demand and supply. Too few Singaporeans have guts and the balls to walk the walk in politics. If this goes on, even 10 million may not be enough to attract good and capable Singaporeans for it.

To Young Singaporean, I am also actually neutral just like you, neither pro PAP or anti PAP. When the time come right and I had done sufficient self study, research and homework etc, only then will I decide which side to turn to. Be it PAP or opposition, This I too swear like you that then my first priority will be general well-being of Singapore if I ever join politics.

Personally, I am disgruntled because I see most of my fellow people that I know around me being so apathetic about things and taking things for granted too easily. If that is the case, I might start to see no point in serving Singapore. I may become too disillusioned about our state of affairs that I just quit Singapore and move elsewhere where I can enjoy life although downgrade to a minority and 2nd class citizen. No point fighting hard for Singapore if people don't appreciate it. My fellow Singaporeans, you all gotta have more guts and be more proactive in action. Be willing to take sacrifices for what you believe in. If you really want it, go get it. Don't be scared. If everyone is not afraid of PAP govt, it can do very little to us. Put your passion into real solid action.

Like what LKY once suggested that why not Singapore come back to Malaysia Federation as a state and give up independence on our own. Perhaps if we want to take the easy way out, We should all just QUIT Singapore and crawl on our knees to beg Malaysia to take us back in. Kowtow 3 times to Malay special rights and re-become a state of Malaysia. Great ! We can have a lighter burden, no need to do national service ( national slavery as some called cynically ). If all of us are not willing to shoulder the heavy burden of nation-building, just quit la. Don't need to talk and blah so much with no action. No action talk only.

Who says building an nation and betterment of society is easy ? It was not easy to build Singapore up where we are today. It only gonna get more and more tougher as time goes by. Maintaining, upkeeping and making Singapore better is a uphill task. Have Singaporeans lost the fighting spirit, the raw hunger for success and willing to do whatever it takes to be victorious in this ever competitive globalised world, because we get too spoilt by the peaceful safe environment ? Are you tough enough for it ? Perhaps PAP has done such a good job and too successful that people become too relaxed and leave it up too easily.

I think I am getting sick and tired of seeing words and no action. Many of my friends that I see, are little prepared for this harsh new world. They are only a bit better than kids, not worldly-wise outside of Singapore at all. At least, I can say for myself that I dare to fight for what I want. Personally for my whole life, I literally fought to get to where I am today. If I want to join politics, I will fight very very hard for it like all the great man of history in politics - LKY for Singapore, Sun Yat Sen, Mao Zedong for China and George Washington and Lincoln for USA, Winston Churchill for Britain, Gandhi for India. From these great men, we can see that it takes a lot of patience, endurance and self-belief to achieve great things. It is a whole life commitment, blood and soul for honour and glory for nation!

PAP is the founder and owner of Spore Inc. All of us here are just workers of this corporation. We are worse than PR & FT because we have nowhere else to go to. (Perhaps Johor in 5 years time?)And since we are intelligent people we would not be so stupid as to be anti-pap. But of course we grouse a lot about the management & staff who get ever higher pay for making us slog harder and cheaper.
Do note that the so-called oppositions, especially CSJ & JBJ, are forced to work even harder and at losses too, just because they dare to speak out and walk about in public. I dare not even declare my real ID here so I know I do not qualify to say they are not credible. I believe it applies to all of you too, hehe!

On AMK Hub, top floor, as you get off the up escalator, you will see a door with a banner. The banner declares JACKPOT. I will never spend a cent in this joint. This is my little action of denial to the power that is oppressing us. I will advise everybody to deny this joint any business. Wish you can do the same after verifying the ownership of this joint.

scratcher

Let me venture to respond to young singaporean 30 June 2007, 1.36 am. As a layman, I do not foresee the Name Singapore(as a landmass) ever erase from history or geography anytime soon. However having said that, Singapore will be more foreigner owned in properties, businesses and with more foreign born politicians too. That; I believe in inevitable once our population hits six millionth and more.

America is also having the same problem as well. Recently, the big corporations are crying a big hooha over the proposed tightening of visa and immigration rules by US Senate.

I asked one of my American professors about his opinion about it. He maybe a bit biased as foreign born naturalized US citizen from India. He seems to be patriotic about USA, extolling the many virtues of USA. He emigrated from India to USA 30 years ago. He said that Foreigners have contributed much to the vibrancy of US society and boosted the economy. Even in technology, a lot has been done by foreigners from research in various fields like sciences and engineering. About 2/3 of the US nobel prizes winners are not native born in the States like Einstein. Even social sciences and business academic as well is not spared from foreign influx of input. Demographically, the Hispanics is the fastest growing segment in the US population. Some analysts even forecast in 20-30 years time, they might overtake the whites and become the majority. Who knows a future US president might be a latino? Even Some US politicians are foreign born as well like California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger - the most recent and famous one.
Are the white Americans afraid and threatened about it ? Yes of course, they naturally feel displaced. But most people appear to be quite open minded about it. This indian born professor feel that he has been treated pretty well in his 30 years in the States as a American citizen. He is a distinguished member of the academic community and even chaired several professional associations. Several big fortune 500 companies consulted him for advice on marketing. He feels very much appreciated and thus goes out of his way to promote USA wherever he goes to teach in other countries.

A white professor whom taught me, is quite friendly and open to foreign people in the USA.

I also have China born and another Indian born professors who emigrated to USA.

Another noteworthy professor is a former Singaporean who went over there and studied to be a professor. She feels that there are more opportunities in the States. Nevertheless, She still contributes back to Singapore by collaborating with her alma mater NTU on research and teaching in NUS.

Another lecturer who taught me, is a African who lives in Singapore for 19 years, teaches in a poly. He told me that he got a Hong kong govt scholarship to study PhD in computer science. served the bond and still don't like the environment in HK. He has surveyed other countries like Aussie , Canada, USA and Britain. He found that Singapore is best for him and got settled down here. He likes the safe environment and even said that in Singapore, you can make a decent living to get by if you work hard.

a former Malaysian who got aussie citizenship but still come to singapore to teach, in order to be near to her family.

Personally, I can see people emigrate for various reasons. I asked myself whether would I emigrate to somewhere else. I don't know and am undecided for now.

I have Singaporean friends who naturally feels threatened by foreign talents. Me too to some extent with some experiences I had. Hey I have foreign friends who feel very much attached to Singapore than their native countries like from Indonesia, China, Vietnam and Malaysia. This goes to show that we are leading the pack in SE Asia.

Recently, I have another 2 American professors who is teaching me in Summer course prog. One White French Canadian and a Korean American. They are so close to each other and share the same brand of humour. I am quite impressed by their sense of chemistry in each others' teaching and knowledge.

I wonder whether Singapore being a multi racial society for so long with 4 races living together. Are we really racial harmonious or just racial tolerant and sensitive ? Have we reached the maturity yet as a people and nation ? Have we fit to ask for more democracy when we are not ready for it to take more responsibility ? I think if we want more democracy, we must be prepared and be more proactive in reaching to each other for our common goals.

I still have not given hope on Singapore that I will emigrate. I am proud of the fact that my forefathers came here with nothing and built up a future here. I will not lose that determination to strive against all odds to succeed and win. The raw hunger for success, fighting spirit and the willingness to sacrifice for the sake for victory. Personally, I had also faced several setbacks in my life and come out stronger than before. This is to disgruntled Singaporean who is challenging all of us to rise up to take up the fight for success in our lives and as a nation ! I accept the challenge. Are the rest of you willing and have the guts and balls to accept his challenge ? Kowtow 3 times to Malay special privileges and accept what Malaysia demands from us. Going down on our knees to beg for surrender to Malaysia and be their underling lackey state again ? Over my dead body !

My fellow Singaporeans, we must have a strong backbone as a person. Never rely too much on others, a rugged individual ! At the same time, I too agree that the PAP govt can do more for us. However, we must help ourselves first. God only help those who help themselves. Want more room for democracy, gotta have self service too to earn it , not get it. otherwise, we won't appreciate, treasure and cherish it at all cos it is gotten too easily.
It is all about how much are you willing to fight for it, in order to gain the ultimate victory in the great battlefield of life. As a country, we ought to be proud of ourselves to have made it through this far in nationhood, overcoming obstacles and enduring setbacks to achieve victory. This is my personal hope that I hold for Singapore.

"So, I really wonder whether will Singapore fall after LKY is gone?", unquote. Singapore exists since the day Nature made it, it exists before Raffles developed it into a thriving interternational Entrepot Seaport. It exists today and forever until Nature destroys it, but whether its' inhabitants will be Bumiputra Singaporeans or Imported Singaporeans will be difficult to answer. In any case, why should Singapore fall together with LKY? I see no reason for the Question, Singapore can be a tiny part of a globalised world, right? It can be anybodys' child like a lovely orphan. "I too agree that the PAP govt can do more for us. However, we must help ourselves first. God only help those who help themselves.", unquote. You are perfectly right! That's why they help their pockets first and whether they will do more for us or not will be secondary!

Hmm Now let us push the questions back to Thrasymachus to give his own answers ? Shall we ?
Thrasymachus, Can you kindly answer your own questions that you had set for us ? I am sure that all of us are interested to hear what's your stand on these questions you set for us. At least I know that I am interested to know what's your opinion.
Come on and show us what you got for it ?

T finds it hard to keep up with this discussion: what cant he offer other than what officials and ST journalists already said?

Please kindly shut up when you are not T. Please give him a chance to speak from himself. Thank you.

I certainly have no doubt that it is end of the road for Singaporeans. We were British Subjects before our independence, and why did we want Independence for? The answer is obvious, so that we will not be subjected to a foreign master. As it is; as more aliens born elsewhere are allowed into our territory calling shots in commerce and ultimately holding political sways one day, we are back to square one again. That is; we will become subjects or worse, second, third class residents. I ask; how many of us can accept such a consequence? I say let the Ministers pay themselves as much as they want, provided they do not make the citizens subjected to non indigenous or so called foreign talents' subjugation! Otherwise, the Leadership deserves to be booted out even if they are paid peanuts for holding their offices! That shall be a fair measure of their worths. Regards from scb.

to Disgruntled: mr T had plenty of time to reply; he has not done so; maybe that's making you disgruntled?

in any case, since you want him to speak for himself, why were you speaking for him?

Patience counts a lot in many things of life. You see, that's the problem with many people in today's complicated world that we got so much things to do in the same time, not just Singaporeans. Gotta to understand the other party has other commitments particularly for a banker. If you are not patient enough, how to do big things for country, let alone do self-study and talk about politics ? Wait and see

Thrasymachus said "Replying to some of your questions, Marc, good point, but I have statistics to represent the contrary to yours. It is not true that Singapore has spent proportionally less on education, health care and welfare for the needy"
I am interested to see what kind of statistical sources that you have to back up the case. Come and show us what you got ! If you can even do a comparative study to other similar countries, all the better ! Don't disappoint me. I be waiting for you and I got lots of patience

dear disgruntled singaporean: since you believe in patience, why are you disgruntled? try to show the same patience to the government as you show to T

T: "Maybe you might not know of this but the implicit rule made known to the PAP Ministers is that if you corrupt, you will commit suicide. Unless you choose to be a coward and will face the humiliation that will slain your name for life. I kid you not on this. A PAP Minister once said this."

So what Mr JBJ said about Teh Cheng Wan and Mr LKY is true afterall!

LKY did a Durai long ago!

I shd say Durai did a LKY! lol

http://www.wp.sg/party/history/1987_1990.htm

"At an election rally, the Secretary-General, challenging the PAP's claim to being an open and transparent government, asked whether any investigation had been conducted as to how the Minister for National Development, Teh Cheng Wan, had obtained the tablets with which he committed suicide in the midst of being investigated for corruption. The Secretary-General also asked whether the Prime Minister had replied to a letter written to him by Teh.

After the elections, Lee commenced proceedings against Jeyaretnam that the Secretary-General had slandered him as his words at the election rally were understood to mean that Lee had aided and abetted Teh Cheng Wan to commit suicide, which was a criminal offence, and had covered up corruption. The action was heard by Justice Lai Kew Chai who found a case against Jeyaretnam and ordered him to pay Lee damages of $260,000 together with interest on the amount and costs.

Jeyaretnam lost the appeal from that judgement. He wanted to take an appeal from the Court of Appeal to the Privy Council but to do that, he had to get Lee's consent before the hearing by the Court of Appeal. This was because the law relating to appeals to the Privy Council had been changed after the Privy Council's judgement restoring Jeyaretnam to the Roll of Advocates and Solicitors. Appeals to the Privy Council by lawyers from any order made by a court of three judges under the Legal Profession Act were abolished. In criminal cases, an appeal from the Court of Criminal Appeal to the Privy Council was also abolished. In civil cases, an appeal was allowed if the other party consented to an appeal before the hearing by the Court of Appeal. Lee did not give his consent."

Well, I am actually more disgruntled at people for being apathetic with little social apathy, being indifferent about political issues. No Action Talk Only. Yeah! I may just pack up and go to somewhere like USA where there is more opportunities to contribute and people appreciate people better. We Singaporeans don't know how to go for it and don't have the guts and balls to fight for it to make things happen

Singapore being dominated by one party, is actually caused largely by us - the Singaporeans. Don't push the majority of the blame to the PAP. Before you blame PAP, Blame yourselves first for not doing anything about it. We deserved to have PAP as govt bcos we consented to have it. CSJ and JBJ are right to some extent to urge us to stand up for our rights as a people. Got Guts for it to fight against PAP? Great men Sun Yat Sen and Gandhi got guts.

quite so, and I am making a start at assertiveness by scolding T for failing to provide timely, meaninful responses

that's a long way from Sun Yat Sen, or even from Jeyaretnam (I once saw him at the entrance of Raffles City loudly speaking out about him being persecuted), but one step at a time

I would like to make a request to T to show us his understandings of the History of Singapore for its' last four hundred years or so. As I only know that this tiny island in the sun has always been a prized possession due to its' vantage geographical location. And it is almost free of natural disaster and historical calamity. The Chinese from mainland China may have migrated here a long time before Raffles who colonized it for the British Empire. Raffles developed it into a thriving seaport that attracted more Asian Immigrants (Chinese, Indian and others). The inhabitants were well treated and taken care of by the British Master. Most locals preferred to work for 'Angmohs' in the Fifties to even today. The only human tragedy happened during the Japanese Occupation. Independence is meant to liberalize, emancipate one from oppression, bully and most importantly, freedom for the people. If INDEPENDENCE results in LOCALS LORDING OVER LOCALS, the Purpose of Independence is greatly perverted. T, your response will be greatly appreciated, regards from scb

For myself, I must still emphasize that I am not really anti-PAP or pro-PAP. I am still a political moderate because I am doing my own homework and research in my course of university studies as a independent political observer. But I do agree that T does lean more towards PAP but still retain significant unbiased judgment.

I see too many people around me being apathetic about social political issues. Makes me wonder how we gonna to progress on to be advanced mature democracy. Are Singaporeans fit and qualified to talk and demand for democracy when we are not willing to shoulder the heavy burden and responsiblity for it ? I too wonder aloud like Young Singaporean.

Nothing is for free in this world. How many Singaporeans are willing to fight for it and make things happen ? Yeah because of this, I might quit Singapore cos I may see no point. Why waste my time and effort when people are not willing ? In this globalised world, you can go practically anywhere to make a difference. Wonder what else would keep my heart to Singapore ? Family- Maybe relocate my family if I have the $. LKY said something like this in the recent YPAP event, " Do you have the heart to pack up everything and say goodbye to the country that gave you a good safe peaceful environment that give you a good education and skills with opportunities that made you mobile. thanks to the earlier generation of Singaporeans had good work ethics,provided the stability, the base on which you mounted your career. Can you in good conscience say, 'Goodbye! Thank you very much'

For the time being, I still cannot bear to bring myself to abandon this ship called Singapore and jump to another ship. Interestingly, the education that I am having now, is not from NUS, SMU or NTU but from a foreign university. So I owe considerably less to govt on education subsidies etc and have less obligations to repay back the nation. But I still feel a sense of belonging that gives me hope that someday I can make a difference for Singapore together with many other fellow Singaporeans.

just want to share..at times, I feel lucky that I live here. During my grandmother's generation, LKY promised the people that he will make Singapore the 2nd New York. Look where we are now. If not, we'll still be staying in non-brick houses. Although there are certain issues about the govt that i disagree with, but hey, nothing is perfect. Take a look at this site,

http://rockybru.blogspot.com/2007/04/look-singapore-policy.html

Read the comments. I wouldn't say Singapore is a perfect country, but a Better place to live in.

so where is the blogger T? no longer able to defend the indefensible?

Im not someone who is very good with politics, but somehow i feel this essay's argument is very naive. At least it sounds naive to my ears when i read it. and it has a slippery slope effect. and i agree that singapore should have some turnover effect and start questioning the government. Many times they're often unable to account for where the money has gone. Another discrediting act of the PAP is that they actually ban social activities conducted by opposition parties ( Eg WP, who organized cycling event for their 50th anniversary), while they can carry out so many activities. they still have the cheek to say political activities are ban because they cause turmoil. i will very much respect the government if they dont engage in these little unscruptulous acts which make them seem very little. so much for a democratic and transparent country.

Waliao, ages since I dropped by, got such game. Hahaha...
Yr. 1- Can't serve MM. Can't understand me, too stubborn, aging. But assuming otherwise, why not?
Yr. 2- Why not? The people and current affairs is my hobby, and interest of nature. I don't have a daughter by the type of Wee since I am not such father... And I have been entercountering a$$holes all my life... Everything I do is backed up. Nothing to worry.
Yr. 6- Being very Chinese, rather choose retirement than NOL. Hahaha... Unless the leader really superb, staying depends hence. Money is no longer important. Actually, excess money has never been a concern.
Yr. 10- I'd find more people like myself. Highly interested but can't be bothered to be corrupted.

Actually, your question is unrealistic:
1. Normal Singaporeans or even China people don't make good politicians. But u r assuming a commoner standards for a political industry.
2. Staying or not depends on political leadership of the leader. If you are asking Goh Chee Wee or Durai or Wee Shu Min, might as well don't ask.
3. It is not really a moral issue on higher or lower pay... Across history, it's still the wisdom of allocation. The problem has always been that of... the nature of our politics.
4. Politics is no easy game. A minister needs to know when to turn and when to be rigid. Impartial is not some across the board virtue. The impatial minister to kill a good element who stick to social norms and can't deal of bad elements able to circumvent the system is hell as well. Even Mr Lee KY himself had to be 'partial' during the fight for power.
5. Singapore political level of thinking is too low for asking such question, especially with regards to ministers.

Rgds.

Elfred.

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